It was claimed by the prosecution that Amanda and Raffaele made an effort to clean up the evidence that would point to them.
The prosecution claimed that the footprints detected with luminol proved there was a clean up effort. Luminol does not prove that there was any clean up effort. There was absolutely no proof presented in court showing any clean up. Luminol glows from many different substances other than blood. Luminol reacts with various household cleaners, different types of soil, rust in tap water, and many other substances. Luminol helps to find areas that may be blood. When the luminol glows, the area can then be tested to see if the stain is actually blood. None of the footprints detected with luminol were tested for blood. If they were tested, then the information was withheld by the prosecution because it did not show the result they wanted. Either way, the footprints detected with luminol were never proven to be blood. These footprints had nothing to do with the murder. They certainly do not prove that there was a clean up effort of any kind.
Prosecutor Mignini made the claim that Amanda attempted to clean up her finger prints from the crime scene. Mignini stated: "It is reasonable to hypothesize that she herself felt the need to eliminate the traces of her presence from an apartment in which she lived."
At the trial, the prosecutor's own fingerprint expert, Giuseppe Privitera, flatly refuted this hypothesis. He said fingerprints tend to get smudged, often it is hard to find good ones even of someone who lives at the scene of an investigation, and nothing he found at the cottage suggested that any effort had been made to remove fingerprints intentionally.
25 comments:
It is ridiculous - how on earth could they clean
everything up, just leaving evidence pointing to Guede - it just isn't possible - Mignini is insane.
Mignini is a megalomaniac who was in charge of the investigation and evidence gathering, as well as the prosecution. His invented stories do not hold up to scrutiny and the evidence is suspicious. Why would a righteous prosecutor with a solid case feel the need to sue anyone who said something he did not like? He is all about his image and false ego, IMO.
This is a great idea. To post these subject discussions.
The clean up is the major point of my suspicion of the prosecution.
The prosecution insinuates that there was one
but avoids the impossiblity of carrying it out.
Think of the decision that RS and AK would have had to make. "Lets remove our traces and then leave Rudy"s traces. Why leave Rudy's traces. Won't he finger us? No he would never do that he's our friend he would take the rap. OK lets get started......Well we did it only rudy's traces are now detectable. Why did we leave Rudy's traces again?
Your comment about there being no clean up is actually not a correct reflection of the evidence. The court explicitly stated in its judgement that there WAS a clean up. Here's a relevant excerpt for you;
"Further confirmation is constituted by the fact that, after Meredith’s murder, some traces were shown to have definitely been erased, a cleaning activity had certainly been carried out. In fact, the bare foot which, stained/covered with blood, left its footprint on the sky-blue mat in the bathroom, could only have reached that mat by taking steps which should have left on the flooring other footprints, also marked out in blood just like (in fact, most likely, with even more [blood], since they were created before the footprint printed on the mat) the one found on the mat itself. Of such other very visible footprints of a bloody bare foot, on the contrary, there was no trace.
Even the drip of blood left on the internal edge of the bathroom door (see photos 141 and 142 already mentioned) seems to be the remainder of a much larger trace.
Moreover, this cleaning activity seems to fit in with the planning carried out by taking the telephones which were then immediately thrown away and by locking the door of Meredith’s room, otherwise one cannot see what other significance these behaviours could have had."
Can you please change the body of the text to make this clear?
Thanks
SomeAlibi
Actually the reason why there was a footprint on the bathmat and not on the floor leading to it, may not be the result of cleaning activity.
I already advanced the hypothesis that Rudy was probably wearing his Nike shoes with the wings from the Greek Goddess Athena Nike. Athena Nike had wings on her feet. Such magic flying shoes permitted Rudy to come through the window without leaving any traces on the exterior wall or in Filomena's room. The same flying Nike shoes were probably used to fly from Meredith's room to the bathroom, that's why they found no footprints leading to it.
In another portion of the judges' report it is mentioned that there are bloody footprints from the Nike shoes coming from Meredith's room and going toward the exit door, before which they fade away. I think it's another proof that Rudy ran on the floor with his Nike shoes (the ones with wings from the Greek Goddess Athena Nike), not surprisingly called "Air Force". As soon as he approached the exit door the footprints faded away and disappeared because that's the time when Rudy finally took off and started flying.
People that night in Perugia looked up at the sky and said: "what is it? It's a bird! It's a plane? No!! It's SuperRudy who came to Perugia to save the city from Ursa Knox.
So Rudi cleaned up. What is your point?
Or Rudy was deliberately trying not to leave blood evidence outside the bedroom, took off his shoes when he realized he was leaving bloody prints in there, but then trod on one of the towels. Since his whole reason for taking his shoes off was leaving as little trace as possible outside the bedroom, he hopped into the bathroom to wash his foot, but he overbalanced; perhaps he tried to wash his foot in the sink first before getting the idea to wash it in the bidet (ever tried to wash your foot in a sink? Very tricky to keep your balance). It makes more sense that Rudy would have wanted to delay the discovery of Meredith's body than that Amanda and Raffaele would have; they were the ones to raise the alarm, after all.
If Raffaele made the print, why wouldn't they get rid of that, too? They had plenty of time; rinsing the bath mat under the sink would have done it. The idea that they didn't know it was a footprint is hardly plausible if they cleaned up bloody footprints leading up to it now, is it?
Kate posted: "If Raffaele made the print, why wouldn't they get rid of that, too? They had plenty of time; rinsing the bath mat under the sink would have done it. The idea that they didn't know it was a footprint is hardly plausible if they cleaned up bloody footprints leading up to it now, is it?"
_____________
Kate, this makes way too much sense! You seem to be forgetting that this is a very complex case.
Bob
Bob,
This case is rather straight forward. It is all the weird press and speculation that has muddied the waters.
I think Bob was being facetious. :)
The clean up logic is totally flawed.
My guess is that Rudi did it with the towels. That's why he made the claims that the towel were used to staunch the bleeding, because he thought his DNA would be on them.
There is no reason that Amanda and Raf would leave Rudi's evidence on purpose. There is no reason that they would miss the blood on the sink or on the mat.
The fact that the footprints leading to the bathroom were missing, but the luminol prints were there indicates that Rudi wiped away his prints and Amanda left hers after the shower just as she described.
I agree, everything Rudy opened up about had something to do with his involvement.
The towels was an excellent example.
His being in Filomenas room was interesting.
Why didn't he just say "I was never there in that room?"
Why didn't he say "I saw Amanda in the cottage with Raffaele?"
Its because they weren't there, he over thought his lies and made them up as he changed them to better himself with Mignini.
Originally he didn't want to blame innocent people, but as the noose got tighter he used the medias famous college kids, and Mignini's obsessed hate to be his alibi.
Its also amazing really the Judges bias allows them to deny almost everything Rudy said , 98% of it is denied, but they believe the part where he says it was Amanda and Raffaele there.
But for the clean-up...
lets remember the tennis shoe prints in blood were so faint, not even the people the next day noticed them in the daylight! They were walked upon by many people Nov 2, before the forensic team arrived.
Rudy had attacked in the dark. So his cleanup was probably aborted early on that evening. he couldn't see any footprints in the dark cottage, that Rudy described as only being lit by Merediths lamp in her bedroom.
You can´t have it both ways, no clean up and/or if there was Rudy did it. Was there a clean up? Yes. So who benefits? Those who left the footprints and who are associated with the house. Amanda claimed (or is it admitted?) that she didn´t think the stain on the bathmat was a footprint which explains why it wasn´t cleaned up. Not that she actually HAD a shower there but she did clean up a little. Apparantly she thought the police would make the same inane assumptions as you do Kate. The problem is that there are no Rudy footprints, there are Rudy shoeprints going straight out the front door...fast. How would Rudy HAVE bloody feet when he was wearing shoes? Luminol IS the test for blood, since the iron remaining when blood is cleaned up is what reacts to luminol, giving a specific reaction which is then photographed as evidence. While it´s true that luminol reacts to other substances, the observed reaction is not the same. So it was blood. Or ok it was Amanda skipping around after putting fruitjuice/ rusty water/whatever on the bottom of her feet - as you do. She or Rafaele or both certainly cleaned the crime scene, removing their footprints and some of Rudy´s shoeprints. Or Rudy did giant hops to the front door - on the very shoe that had blood on the bottom? the Luminol footprints found at a bloody crime scene tend to be made in blood. I don´t see this being argued against in other murder cases. It seems that luminol, DNA and a ton of other evidence is good enough for every other case in the world except this one.
Bt the way - how did Rudy lock the door to Meredith´s room with his hands covered in blood? Because there´s no evidence to show that Rudy entered either bathroon after the crime...
It wasn´t ´claimed´by the prosecution, it was ´demonstrated´by the prosecution, convincing a neutral jury who had no vested interest in securing a conviction.
Your posters are covering their bases by admitting there was a clean up and attempting without success to posit a scenario where Rudy cleans up only what doesn´t implicate him! Clean- ups and staging always point to people living in the same house or closely associated with the victim. Random killers who have no connection with the victim don´t need to clean or stage and don´t have time to be found at the scrime scene. Rudy didn´t clean up, full stop.
The prosecution didn't demonstrate that Amanda and/or Raffaele cleaned up anything. All they demonstrated was blood, traces of blood, bloody towels, fingerprints, broken glass, poop, etc. The clean up in evidence sure wasn't a very good one.
All of it can be read differently by different people. "Your posters" (I guess you mean only those who aren't gullible enough to buy the prosecution's case?) aren't so naive that they immediately leap to the conclusion that any evidence of mopping up blood is necessarily evidence of who did or didn't do the mopping up.
Your reasoning skills are weak at best, anon June 4 7:30 am, particularly when you assert that the jury was "neutral" and "had no vested interest in securing a conviction." Where is your evidence to support that?
One of the jurors stated they were all crying when they reached the verdict against Amanda & Raffaele. However, people outside the courtroom cheered (!), so explain how jurors living in that town "had no vested interest in securing a conviction" when the mob outside cheered their verdict. Surely, jurors know in Italy, a verdict of "guilty" merely passes the buck to let the appellate court reverse the decision, as a whole new trial of the evidence (a "trial de novo"). Beyond the luminol footprints, note that there were no luminol "smears" which typically indicate a wiped area. Also, people have noted the general presence of dust across the cottage floor, indicating the floor was not mopped, in general or in many isolated spots. Rudy incriminated himself, when he insisted the "regular pillow was on the bed" when he left Meredith "fully clothed" but he could not explain how his blood hand-print and Nike Outbreak 2 shoe-prints were on that pillow, under the disrobed body. Only Rudy's DNA, in large amounts (RFU > 300), was found on her clothes, shirt, bra (back half), severed bra-strap cloth, and handbag, which was missing 300 euros, 2 credit cards, and her house-keys which were never found. It is unlikely Amanda would risk tossing Meredith's house keys (people found the tossed phones, and she knew the door would not latch without the key), if she thought the investigation would last a few days, then she would expect to return to her cottage. Instead, Rudy would return (with keys), and stage the scene, long enough to leave town.
I see Somealibi has been drinking the Mignini koolaide again.
Pity
The store owner wanted his 15 minutes of fame,but when he got to court he sounded like a moron.
Maybe he is Mignini's half brother.
Not Anonymous
My name is
Michael taylor
Rudy left limited bloody footprint evidence, as he ran out the door immediately after the murder and they knew he wouldn't return. They had their patsy. Therefore, they avoided Rudy's prints while they faked the break-in, locked Meredith's door, and cleaned up any blood evidence in the sink (although luckily they missed some spots of Amanda/Meredith DNA mixtures). Then they only mopped up their own prints. Easy as pie, really.
Although the footprints exposed by luminol were not shown to be blood, I believe they were shown to have DNA associated with them, some of them both Amanda and Meredith's DNA. Fruit juice, cleaners, etc. do not have human DNA.
And how is it significant that there is DNA from two residents on the floor of their apartment?
There was no clean up.
But I bet my bottom penny that Amanda is a very clean girl.
Why do I say that, what sort of girl wants to walk around town smelling of sex? So she had a shower and change cloths.
This case is like the baby killer in Boston who came from the UK.
Full of bull and no real fact.
the myth that luminol will react differently: it will glow blue....PERIOD! it's doesn't do anything else, it doesn't show there IS blood present, it show blood MIGHT be present, it will also show anything with iron, copper, bleach or horseradish (yes horseradish) so if they cleaned up with bleach, why didn't they have luminol pictures of big streaks where bleach was wiped?
the glow only last for 30 seconds after that the electrons return to a grounded state and the glow stops......take an 8th grade science class....sheesh!
Here is exactly what I think happened. Its an easy case:
A) Rudy broke into the house through Filomenas window, it was not sraged, there was dirt on the floor near the window. Rudy had recently briken into a second story building around the corner, the same way. When he broke into homes he iften went through drawers throwing clothes etc around the room.perhaps he planned to steal after he scoped out the house, which he did, helping himself o a drink from the refrigerator. He had stomache issues so went to Lauras bathroom. He was known to fall asleep on toilets and to have strange sleepwalking dreans.
Meredith then arrives home goes to the kitchen, eats a mushroom, goes to her room with no idea Rudys in the house. He goes to her room she's frightened and confused he wants money, she gives him her 300 euro but he wants more they fight hard enough that his shoe is kicked off. The more he stabs her the less she can fight, he grabs her from behind, slits her throat, sge falls forward, dying. He is shocked by the blood and what he's done, he leaves the room for towels to stop the bleeding, he's just murdered someone, he isn't thinking of stealung computers now, or his lost shoe.he puts the knife down by her purse and grabs what he can from it, as he leaves her room he feels blood on his foot, franticly washes it in the bidet, wasshes his hands and runs from the house. since we know he left the house wirh one shoe off, its stupidity to blame the foot print on Raphael. He runs almost knocking over a couole, perhaps the phones ring, he's scared and throws them over rhe wall. Somehow gwts home,shoqwrs and changes. Full if adrenakincge goes downtown to dance it out. Later he thinks of the knife and the shoe so goes back to the house to collect them. Merwdith is dead, he pulls gwr body away from the blood and procedes to molest her. He can do wgat he wants.he cuts iff her bra and pulls up her shirt, its not a sftaging, its an after death rape. He civers her with a sheet closes and locks her door. If there were signs of a clean up, its not hard to imagine Rudy cleaning iff thr door or any visible sins that he sees. He needs time to get away before she's discovered. Then everything Amanda and Rafaele have said is true. Ananda came home as she said. Even Dilomenas boyfriend said, when he arrived about the blood, Maybe someone was hurt and left to take care of it. Exactly what Amanda thought. End of story, Cops jump to conclusuons, evidence points to one person Rudy. Italy owes an appology to both Raphael and Amanda and reimbusment of all fund they ir their family had to use to fight these unfounded and incredibly malicious charges. They must publicly say to the world they are not guilty abd innocent.
There was only one bloody shoe print leading out the doorone left bkoody shoe print and one right bloody footprint on the mat. So 2+2= obvious
How can a jury be nuetral that is not sequestered? They decided this case the way Mignini told them to. One jurrir slept most if the time. AK and RS didn't kill anyone. Rudy did
Nothing was staged. Rudy moved Merediths body away from the blood later wgen he came back to molest the dead body, lock Meredithss door, perhaps clean off visible signs of blood on the door to buy getaway time
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